Tue, Jun. 21st, 2005, 08:03 pm
lisacharly: Stop killing the B-list already!
No journals and we already have six frequent customers. Quite a tally.
Alright, so, deaths in comics. It's not deaths that bug me. I'm all for the occasional tear-jerking goodbye, the death that has a lasting repercussion and brings the team to their knees.
It's deaths done to make a story seem serious that piss me off. Like Northstar's death in Wolverine. What the hell was up with that? At least Nunzio and Christina did something interesting with it afterwards, but we all know gutting JP was thrown in just to make that Wolverine arc seems serious. This bugs me. If it had been a good, decent death, that's one thing. But instead, it was just to add 'impact'.
Furthermore, it's not just Marvel doing this - the solicits for The Intimates #10 suggest death as well (I think it's Sparky or Kefong), probably to help save the book from the bad sales it's getting. Does the public honestly go for deaths like this? Will killing off some high-school kid really help the series where the excellent writing didn't?
I find it strange that instead of character development or even MEANINGFUL deaths, we just seem to get random deaths.
Rant over. For now.
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 04:08 am (UTC)
Northstar's death bugged me, mostly because I know N & C had big plans for him in Academy X and he was stolen from them. But I have heard the reason he was killed was (apparently) to give him time in the spotlight opposite the likes of Elektra and Wolverine. Now personally I think they could have done just that without killing him, but I'm just a fan, what do I know...
I hate comic book deaths. Why? They aren't real. They shouldn't be real, but let's face it, when someone dies it's not "OMG you didn't?!" it's just "Great, how long do we have to wait now till someone brings them back?" But I don't think comic book characters should die anyway, not unless there is some super duper can't-resist will forever make things better reason to do so. I have the real world if I want lasting death thanks, I read comics because I enjoy the characters, I want to see them every month. Not every month for a while and then a stupid death because the writer doesn't like said character or is sick of thinking about storylines for them. That's why we have a great thing called 'limbo'. Or in the X-Men universe, X-Corps :p
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 04:14 am (UTC)
I can take lasting deaths in comic books. Sometimes I think they should be employed, when a character's story is done (frankly, I think death is the only best option for Tom right now, but that's more to spare him more mangling). I just hate these random deaths, with no consequence other than making people mad.
Where is X-Corps, anyway? Whatever happened to them?
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 04:17 am (UTC)
Exactly :p God knows what's up with X-Corps these days. But they're a fine excuse if you need to get rid of someone, no need for pointless killing.
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 04:23 am (UTC)
Ah, right, didn't X-Corps get that one-page maiming in New X-Men? Where Siryn took up drinking again, Sam threatened to puke on people and the Castellanos sisters worked together? All completely out of character?
Takes a lot of skill to mangle that many character in two pages...
X-Corps have half the interesting characters too, while Marvel's busy shoving Emma and Wolvie down our throats for the umpteenth time.
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 04:27 am (UTC)
New X-Men. My dear, you should know I avoided most of that like the plague ;) Morrison can kiss my behind. It's not like him writing out of character is a new thing. He just gets away with it because "OMG he's teh bestest!!11" Ugh. Amazes me how he got such respect for the train wreck he created.
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 04:32 am (UTC)
I never understood Morrison's hype. To me, it seemed like his work was trying too hard to be edgy, and that everyone thought he was so cool that he could get away with shoddy continuity.
I dropped NXM after the first arc, I think...
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 04:36 am (UTC)
I feel the same way. Exactly the same. I dropped NXM after the first arc too. I started to pick it up again towards the end (once I knew he was leaving) and it was just more of the same crap. Can't say I'm upset I missed most of it. He had the worst artists as well, which didn't help with me liking the book. Honestly, most of it was just god awful.
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 04:42 am (UTC)
I actually liked Phil Jimenez, but the rest of the artists just seemed to suck.
I couldn't stand it. I think Morrison mistook drugs, sex and gore for 'maturity' way too many times.
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 04:45 am (UTC)
I can't recall liking any of the artists (Jimenez included). Combined with Morrison's craptacular writing, craptacular characters and god awful costumes... it's not a period I like to remember.
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 04:47 am (UTC)
I do admit that I hated Jimenez' Cyke.
Neither is it a period I like to remember - between Austen and Morrison, I'm shocked the franchise didn't shut down.
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 04:50 am (UTC)
Heh, amen. Although when it came to Morrison or Austen, I preferred to read Austen's drivel. At least I didn't want to kill myself after reading. I just felt dirty :p I wasn't enjoying Claremont on X-Treme either. Dark days those were.
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 04:54 am (UTC)
Days of the back issues, those were.
I'd read Austen over Morrison with the exception of the Heroes and Villains arc, which made me cry blood...but at least Austen didn't write absolutely filthy things that got passed off as maturity and 'cutting-edge'. And at least Austen didn't give me very high expectations.
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 04:58 am (UTC)
For me the difference was in respect for the characters. Austen's writing was horrid, yes, but he at least respected the characters. Morrison gave me the impression he just couldn't give a shit, he was doing what he wanted and to hell with established history and character traits.
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 05:03 am (UTC)
Morrison seemed to have this huge ego that he could do what he wanted with them because he was so great. Austen didn't seem to have much respect for them either, and when people pointed out his errors he dismissed them as 'raving fanboys' who couldn't understand it (no, Austen, I fully fucking understand that you gave my baby a frontal lobotomy, that's not rocket science). Neither of them won very high favor with me.
I think Marvel gave Grant a bit too much reign, and he abused that. I think Austen just didn't care all that much, it was a high-paying job but he couldn't even be shitted to research.
Either way, they both pissed me off.
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 05:09 am (UTC)
Oh I have to disagree with you about Austen. He definitely had respect for most of the characters (I won't say all, as I don't believe any writer, ever, has had respect for every character). He didn't always write the best stuff, but he definitely gave a toss and he cared. Unfortunately he didn't always care about the right thing (like oh, continuity), but he cared. That much came across in his interviews at least. For Morrison, all I ever saw is "Emma's sexy, I love her to death, you all have to put up with her now."
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 05:20 am (UTC)
I never got that with Austen - to me, it was that he liked Northstar, Havok, Nightcrawler, Husk and Juggy, and every other character could go to hell. Furthermore, neither he nor Morrison respected the fans, which royally pissed me off - It's one thing to not respect a fictional character, but to dismiss the opinion of a real person as juvenile and stupid without hearing them out is just beyond my scope of likeability. I've heard Chuck's a great guy in real life, but I never once saw that in him during interviews. I saw him bitter and lashing out at the fans, who were 'too obsessed to understand'.
Morrison had no respect for the characters at all, I'll grant you that...but Austen didn't come across as really treating it more than a job to me either. He had, in the interviews at least, a very arrogant persona that refused to look on evidence that so-and-so was right, he was wrong.
My, I'm quite bitchy tonight...
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 05:35 am (UTC)
We're gonna have to agree to disagree then. Mostly because I'm tired and barely able to keep my eyes open to keep arguing with you ;)
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 05:36 am (UTC)
Hey, no prob. :) Agree to disagree it is.
Wed, Jun. 22nd, 2005 07:43 am (UTC)
Ha ha, I love your icon. Every time I read that issue, I always cackle at how dumb Havok is for getting outsmarted by my boy Avalanche (who's not the brightest bulb in the socket) ^_^
Oh, and don't get me started on character deaths. Too many of my faves have died.
Thu, Jun. 23rd, 2005 04:27 pm (UTC)
In my opinion, there shouldn't be a death in the comics, unless of course, there's a really good reason for doing it. Some characters who died didn't pissed me off because I felt there was a good reason for it. But for the writers to kill other characters just because they feel it's a waste of space or other lame reasons isn't justice at all. These characters are the ones that fuel me to read more, even if they belong on a small angle. You can call me weird, but I try to keep track of almost every character who I feel has a great deal of potential to produce an interesting angle. There are other ways that can be done rather than putting the lights out of them.
Thu, Jun. 23rd, 2005 05:17 pm (UTC)
Killing a character because the author thinks they're lame just crosses the line for me. Killing characters, at times,can be a powerful writing tool used to drive a character arc and plot forward (like many of the deaths in Hellblazer or Y the Last Man).
A lot of characters that get offed, though, are underdeveloped and are used for shock value. I prefer killing off a major character - because of the relationships that character has had time to form, the emotional repercussions in the comic can be devastating and open new venues. But killing off B-listers to make something 'exciting' and 'shocking' is ridiculous. There is no emotional feedback and there is no real lasting effect. It just pisses fans off.
Most new characters and B-listers are loaded with potential - killing them off is a cheap way of avoiding that. :(
Fri, Jun. 24th, 2005 02:58 pm (UTC)
Exactly my point. A major character's death would still be understandable. Sometimes, a death of a certain character shows that a writer is trying to prove something (Sandman vol. 10 - The Wake). That too is acceptable.
I still expect a lot of B-listers around to develop, because their angle still interests me. Whenever these writers decide to off them, it just makes me want to choke the shit out of them. I just wish they'd realize this mistake.
Thu, Jun. 23rd, 2005 08:41 pm (UTC)
The thing that annoyed me the most about Northstar's death was the writers' attitude to the fans. In an interview with alphaflight.net he said that he thought it was ridiculous that fans were freaking out that he'd killed Northstar because the story obviously indicated that he'd be reanimated. Smug bastard. Who here reads Wolverine? I never have and never will (I think Wolvie is a seriously overrated character) and I would imagine that the fan base for Wolverine and the fan base for Northstar is slightly different...
It pisses me off when creators take things, including their readership for greanted. The Magneto rebirth for Excalibur was also completely unnecessary. And why is Psylocke back? I bought that issue just to see her come back and it was just a case of 'Oh look, Psylocke's not dead anymore.' 'Really? Cool.' And off the went on their merry way again *grumble*
The only back-from-the-death that I can think of as being any good was Colossus' return. From a character-reaction standpoint it was excellent. Both the writing and the art completely captured REALISTIC reactions to someone coming back from the dead (well, as much as it can be realistic anyway!). But, I think the reason for bringing him back and the vague explanation for how he came back were pretty weak.
"Dead means dead." *smacks Quesada*
Fri, Jun. 24th, 2005 08:03 pm (UTC)
I don't mind the resurrections. I do mind Marvel's disregard for the fan community. We're the ones buying their minis and C-list titles, not these fabled 'new readers'.
But if they keep killing off characters, they're going to keep resurrecting them...
Fri, Jun. 24th, 2005 08:56 pm (UTC)
Fuck! Wrong account!
Alright, pretend the below post was from the LisaCharly account, please. :) I've been RPing so long I can't keep my names straight. O.-
Fri, Jun. 24th, 2005 07:53 pm (UTC)
I hate it when characters die, then come back without logical explaination. The LEAST the writters can do is leave them dead. What's the point of a character that seems to die every other issue, anyways?
They kill the B-list characters because no one but (don't kill me) geeks like us care if they go. What I wouldn't give to punch the idiot who came up with that theory, and the smartass who turned Black Tom into a tree.
Fri, Jun. 24th, 2005 08:01 pm (UTC)
I don't mind them showing back up again (hey, if that never happened, I wouldn't have gotten Davis-Tom), but the pointless killing gets under my skin something fierce.
That's Lobdell for the tree thing, by the way. And Austen for dragging a resolved plot back up. Stupid tree-plot...
Fri, Jun. 24th, 2005 08:45 pm (UTC)
The evil bastards...
Fri, Jun. 24th, 2005 08:51 pm (UTC)
Side note - Shina, do you RP?
Fri, Jun. 24th, 2005 09:29 pm (UTC)
I run two RP sites, cher, what do you think? [/sarcasm]
Quite a bit, come to think of it.
Fri, Jun. 24th, 2005 11:18 pm (UTC)
I meant on LJ, sorry. XD
Fri, Jun. 24th, 2005 11:22 pm (UTC)
I know two people here, you and Myst. So nope, just post sprites and complain about something occasionally.
Fri, Jun. 24th, 2005 11:31 pm (UTC)
Ah, because you'd certainly be welcome at sages_of_chaos
. I've recently become addicted to it. O.O
Fri, Jun. 24th, 2005 11:41 pm (UTC)
Speaking of RP, you vanished off the face of mine. :( Doesn't bother anyone though, pretty much everyone vanished.
Fri, Jun. 24th, 2005 11:43 pm (UTC)
Sorry. :( I just kept getting so lost and feeling like such a newb. :( If you want me to come back, I most certainly will! :)
Sat, Jun. 25th, 2005 12:08 am (UTC)
I'll ban somebody for making you feel like that. You don't have to if you don't want to, I'm just curious as to where the hell everyone went. Inazuma couldn't of scared them off that fast.
Sat, Jun. 25th, 2005 12:11 am (UTC)
It wasn't anybody in particular, just me being insecure. :\ Hey, I'll come back. I've gotten a better hang of this RP thing in the meantime anyhoo. :)
Sun, Aug. 21st, 2005 05:45 pm (UTC)
Everyone feels like that sooner or later, hun.
But YAY!! People still like me and aren't avoiding me! :)